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From: "Ananyev, Konstantin" <konstantin.ananyev@intel.com>
To: Honnappa Nagarahalli <Honnappa.Nagarahalli@arm.com>,
	Stephen Hemminger <stephen@networkplumber.org>,
	Phil Yang <Phil.Yang@arm.com>
Cc: "thomas@monjalon.net" <thomas@monjalon.net>,
	"dev@dpdk.org" <dev@dpdk.org>,
	"Richardson, Bruce" <bruce.richardson@intel.com>,
	"Yigit, Ferruh" <ferruh.yigit@intel.com>,
	"hemant.agrawal@nxp.com" <hemant.agrawal@nxp.com>,
	"jerinj@marvell.com" <jerinj@marvell.com>,
	"ktraynor@redhat.com" <ktraynor@redhat.com>,
	"maxime.coquelin@redhat.com" <maxime.coquelin@redhat.com>,
	"olivier.matz@6wind.com" <olivier.matz@6wind.com>,
	"mb@smartsharesystems.com" <mb@smartsharesystems.com>,
	"mattias.ronnblom@ericsson.com" <mattias.ronnblom@ericsson.com>,
	"Van Haaren, Harry" <harry.van.haaren@intel.com>,
	"Carrillo, Erik G" <erik.g.carrillo@intel.com>,  nd <nd@arm.com>,
	nd <nd@arm.com>
Subject: Re: [dpdk-dev] [PATCH v4 4/4] eal/atomic: add wrapper for c11 atomics
Date: Wed, 13 May 2020 11:53:58 +0000	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <BYAPR11MB3301A7304EDC108EA4F2AA3A9ABF0@BYAPR11MB3301.namprd11.prod.outlook.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <DBBPR08MB4646C689A1334A396FBF954698BE0@DBBPR08MB4646.eurprd08.prod.outlook.com>

> <snip>
> 
> Subject: Re: [PATCH v4 4/4] eal/atomic: add wrapper for c11 atomics
> 
> On Tue, May 12, 2020 at 4:03 pm, Phil Yang <mailto:phil.yang@arm.com> wrote:
> 
> parameter. Signed-off-by: Phil Yang <mailto:phil.yang@arm.com>
> 
> 
> What is the purpose of having rte_atomic at all?
> Is this level of indirection really helping?
> [HONNAPPA] (not sure why this email has html format, converted to text format)
> I believe you meant, why not use the __atomic_xxx built-ins directly? The only reason for now is handling of
> __atomic_thread_fence(__ATOMIC_SEQ_CST) for x86. This is equivalent to rte_smp_mb which has an optimized implementation for x86.
> According to Konstantin, the compiler does not generate optimal code. Wrapping that built-in alone is going to be confusing.
> 
> The wrappers also allow us to have our own implementation using inline assembly for compilers versions that do not support C11 atomic
> built-ins. But, I do not know if there is a need to support those versions.

Few thoughts from my side about that patch:
Yes, for __atomic_thread_fence(__ATOMIC_SEQ_CST) generates full 'mfence' which is quite expensive,
and can be a avoided for SMP case.
Though I don't see why we need to create our own wrappers  for *all*  __atomic buitins.
From my perspective it would be sufficient to just introduce few of them:
rte_thread_fence_XXX (where XXX - supported memory-orders: RELEASE, ACUIQRE, SEQ_CST, etc.).
For all other __atomic built-ins I don't see any problem to use them directly,
without introducing any wrappers around.  

As a side note, this patch implements rte_atomic_thread_fence() as a simple wrapper around
__atomic_thread_fence(), so concern mentioned above is not addressed.

  parent reply	other threads:[~2020-05-13 11:54 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 219+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2020-03-10 17:49 [dpdk-dev] [PATCH 00/10] generic rte atomic APIs deprecate proposal Phil Yang
2020-03-10 17:49 ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH 01/10] doc: add generic atomic deprecation section Phil Yang
2020-03-10 17:49 ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH 02/10] devtools: prevent use of rte atomic APIs in future patches Phil Yang
2020-03-10 17:49 ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH 03/10] vhost: optimize broadcast rarp sync with c11 atomic Phil Yang
2020-03-10 17:49 ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH 04/10] ipsec: optimize with c11 atomic for sa outbound sqn update Phil Yang
2020-03-10 17:49 ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH 05/10] service: remove rte prefix from static functions Phil Yang
2020-03-10 17:49 ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH 06/10] service: remove redundant code Phil Yang
2020-03-10 17:49 ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH 07/10] service: avoid race condition for MT unsafe service Phil Yang
2020-03-10 17:49 ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH 08/10] service: identify service running on another core correctly Phil Yang
2020-03-10 17:49 ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH 09/10] service: optimize with c11 one-way barrier Phil Yang
2020-03-10 17:49 ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH 10/10] service: relax barriers with C11 atomic operations Phil Yang
2020-03-12  7:44 ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH v2 00/10] generic rte atomic APIs deprecate proposal Phil Yang
2020-03-12  7:44   ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH v2 01/10] doc: add generic atomic deprecation section Phil Yang
2020-03-12  7:44   ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH v2 02/10] devtools: prevent use of rte atomic APIs in future patches Phil Yang
2020-03-12  7:44   ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH v2 03/10] vhost: optimize broadcast rarp sync with c11 atomic Phil Yang
2020-03-12  7:44   ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH v2 04/10] ipsec: optimize with c11 atomic for sa outbound sqn update Phil Yang
2020-03-12  7:44   ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH v2 05/10] service: remove rte prefix from static functions Phil Yang
2020-03-12  7:44   ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH v2 06/10] service: remove redundant code Phil Yang
2020-03-12  7:44   ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH v2 07/10] service: avoid race condition for MT unsafe service Phil Yang
2020-03-12  7:44   ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH v2 08/10] service: identify service running on another core correctly Phil Yang
2020-03-12  7:44   ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH v2 09/10] service: optimize with c11 one-way barrier Phil Yang
2020-03-12  7:44   ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH v2 10/10] service: relax barriers with C11 atomic operations Phil Yang
2020-03-17  1:17   ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH v3 00/12] generic rte atomic APIs deprecate proposal Phil Yang
2020-03-17  1:17     ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH v3 01/12] doc: add generic atomic deprecation section Phil Yang
2020-03-17  1:17     ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH v3 02/12] devtools: prevent use of rte atomic APIs in future patches Phil Yang
2020-03-17  1:17     ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH v3 03/12] eal/build: add libatomic dependency for 32-bit clang Phil Yang
2020-04-24  6:08       ` Phil Yang
2020-03-17  1:17     ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH v3 04/12] build: remove redundant code Phil Yang
2020-04-24  6:14       ` Phil Yang
2020-03-17  1:17     ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH v3 05/12] vhost: optimize broadcast rarp sync with c11 atomic Phil Yang
2020-04-23 16:54       ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH v2] " Phil Yang
2020-04-27  8:57         ` Maxime Coquelin
2020-04-28 16:06         ` Maxime Coquelin
2020-03-17  1:17     ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH v3 06/12] ipsec: optimize with c11 atomic for sa outbound sqn update Phil Yang
2020-03-23 18:48       ` Ananyev, Konstantin
2020-03-23 19:07         ` Honnappa Nagarahalli
2020-03-23 19:18           ` Ananyev, Konstantin
2020-03-23 20:20             ` Honnappa Nagarahalli
2020-03-24 13:10               ` Ananyev, Konstantin
2020-03-24 13:21                 ` Ananyev, Konstantin
2020-03-24 10:37             ` Phil Yang
2020-03-24 11:03               ` Ananyev, Konstantin
2020-03-25  9:38                 ` Phil Yang
2020-04-23 17:16       ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH v2] " Phil Yang
2020-04-23 17:45         ` Jerin Jacob
2020-04-24  4:49           ` Phil Yang
2020-04-23 18:10         ` Ananyev, Konstantin
2020-04-24  4:35           ` Phil Yang
2020-04-24  4:33         ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH v3] " Phil Yang
2020-04-24 11:17           ` Ananyev, Konstantin
2020-05-09 21:51             ` Akhil Goyal
2020-03-17  1:17     ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH v3 07/12] service: remove rte prefix from static functions Phil Yang
2020-04-03 11:57       ` Van Haaren, Harry
2020-04-08 10:14         ` Phil Yang
2020-04-08 10:36           ` Van Haaren, Harry
2020-04-08 10:49             ` Phil Yang
2020-04-05 21:35       ` Honnappa Nagarahalli
2020-04-08 10:14         ` Phil Yang
2020-04-23 16:31       ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH v2 0/6] use c11 atomics for service core lib Phil Yang
2020-04-23 16:31         ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH v2 1/6] service: fix race condition for MT unsafe service Phil Yang
2020-04-29 16:51           ` Van Haaren, Harry
2020-04-29 22:48             ` Honnappa Nagarahalli
2020-05-01 14:21               ` Van Haaren, Harry
2020-05-01 14:56                 ` Honnappa Nagarahalli
2020-05-01 17:51                   ` Van Haaren, Harry
2020-04-23 16:31         ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH v2 2/6] service: identify service running on another core correctly Phil Yang
2020-04-23 16:31         ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH v2 3/6] service: remove rte prefix from static functions Phil Yang
2020-04-23 16:31         ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH v2 4/6] service: remove redundant code Phil Yang
2020-04-23 16:31         ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH v2 5/6] service: optimize with c11 atomics Phil Yang
2020-04-23 16:31         ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH v2 6/6] service: relax barriers with C11 atomics Phil Yang
2020-05-02  0:02         ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH v3 0/6] use c11 atomics for service core lib Honnappa Nagarahalli
2020-05-02  0:02           ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH v3 1/6] service: fix race condition for MT unsafe service Honnappa Nagarahalli
2020-05-05 14:48             ` Van Haaren, Harry
2020-05-02  0:02           ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH v3 2/6] service: identify service running on another core correctly Honnappa Nagarahalli
2020-05-05 14:48             ` Van Haaren, Harry
2020-05-02  0:02           ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH v3 3/6] service: remove rte prefix from static functions Honnappa Nagarahalli
2020-05-05 14:48             ` Van Haaren, Harry
2020-05-02  0:02           ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH v3 4/6] service: remove redundant code Honnappa Nagarahalli
2020-05-05 14:48             ` Van Haaren, Harry
2020-05-02  0:02           ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH v3 5/6] service: optimize with c11 atomics Honnappa Nagarahalli
2020-05-05 14:48             ` Van Haaren, Harry
2020-05-02  0:02           ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH v3 6/6] service: relax barriers with C11 atomics Honnappa Nagarahalli
2020-05-05 14:48             ` Van Haaren, Harry
2020-05-05 21:17         ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH v4 0/6] use c11 atomics for service core lib Honnappa Nagarahalli
2020-05-05 21:17           ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH v4 1/6] service: fix race condition for MT unsafe service Honnappa Nagarahalli
2020-05-05 21:17           ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH v4 2/6] service: fix identification of service running on other lcore Honnappa Nagarahalli
2020-05-05 21:17           ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH v4 3/6] service: remove rte prefix from static functions Honnappa Nagarahalli
2020-05-05 21:17           ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH v4 4/6] service: remove redundant code Honnappa Nagarahalli
2020-05-05 21:17           ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH v4 5/6] service: optimize with c11 atomics Honnappa Nagarahalli
2020-05-06 10:20             ` Phil Yang
2020-05-05 21:17           ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH v4 6/6] service: relax barriers with C11 atomics Honnappa Nagarahalli
2020-05-06 10:24           ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH v5 0/6] use c11 atomics for service core lib Phil Yang
2020-05-06 10:24             ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH v5 1/6] service: fix race condition for MT unsafe service Phil Yang
2020-05-06 10:24             ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH v5 2/6] service: fix identification of service running on other lcore Phil Yang
2020-05-06 10:24             ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH v5 3/6] service: remove rte prefix from static functions Phil Yang
2020-05-06 10:24             ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH v5 4/6] service: remove redundant code Phil Yang
2020-05-06 10:24             ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH v5 5/6] service: optimize with c11 atomics Phil Yang
2020-05-06 10:24             ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH v5 6/6] service: relax barriers with C11 atomics Phil Yang
2020-05-06 15:27             ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH v6 0/6] use c11 atomics for service core lib Phil Yang
2020-05-06 15:27               ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH v6 1/6] service: fix race condition for MT unsafe service Phil Yang
2020-05-06 15:28               ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH v6 2/6] service: fix identification of service running on other lcore Phil Yang
2020-05-06 15:28               ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH v6 3/6] service: remove rte prefix from static functions Phil Yang
2020-05-06 15:28               ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH v6 4/6] service: remove redundant code Phil Yang
2020-05-06 15:28               ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH v6 5/6] service: optimize with c11 atomics Phil Yang
2020-05-06 15:28               ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH v6 6/6] service: relax barriers with C11 atomics Phil Yang
2020-05-11 11:21               ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH v6 0/6] use c11 atomics for service core lib David Marchand
2020-03-17  1:17     ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH v3 08/12] service: remove redundant code Phil Yang
2020-04-03 11:58       ` Van Haaren, Harry
2020-04-05 18:35         ` Honnappa Nagarahalli
2020-04-08 10:15           ` Phil Yang
2020-03-17  1:17     ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH v3 09/12] service: avoid race condition for MT unsafe service Phil Yang
2020-04-03 11:58       ` Van Haaren, Harry
2020-04-04 18:03         ` Honnappa Nagarahalli
2020-04-08 18:05           ` Van Haaren, Harry
2020-04-09  1:31             ` Honnappa Nagarahalli
2020-04-09 16:46               ` Van Haaren, Harry
2020-04-18  6:21                 ` Honnappa Nagarahalli
2020-04-21 17:43                   ` Van Haaren, Harry
2020-03-17  1:17     ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH v3 10/12] service: identify service running on another core correctly Phil Yang
2020-04-03 11:58       ` Van Haaren, Harry
2020-04-05  2:43         ` Honnappa Nagarahalli
2020-03-17  1:17     ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH v3 11/12] service: optimize with c11 one-way barrier Phil Yang
2020-04-03 11:58       ` Van Haaren, Harry
2020-04-06  4:22         ` Honnappa Nagarahalli
2020-04-08 10:15         ` Phil Yang
2020-03-17  1:17     ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH v3 12/12] service: relax barriers with C11 atomic operations Phil Yang
2020-04-03 11:58       ` Van Haaren, Harry
2020-04-06 17:06         ` Honnappa Nagarahalli
2020-04-08 19:42           ` Van Haaren, Harry
2020-03-18 14:01     ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH v3 00/12] generic rte atomic APIs deprecate proposal Van Haaren, Harry
2020-03-18 15:13       ` Thomas Monjalon
2020-03-20  5:01         ` Honnappa Nagarahalli
2020-03-20 12:20           ` Jerin Jacob
2020-03-20  4:51       ` Honnappa Nagarahalli
2020-03-20 18:32         ` Honnappa Nagarahalli
2020-03-27 14:47           ` Van Haaren, Harry
2020-04-03  7:23     ` Mattias Rönnblom
2020-05-12  8:03     ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH v4 0/4] " Phil Yang
2020-05-12  8:03       ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH v4 1/4] doc: add generic atomic deprecation section Phil Yang
2020-05-12  8:03       ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH v4 2/4] maintainers: claim maintainers of c11 atomics code Phil Yang
2020-05-24 23:11         ` Thomas Monjalon
2020-05-25  3:28           ` Phil Yang
2020-05-12  8:03       ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH v4 3/4] devtools: prevent use of rte atomic APIs in future patches Phil Yang
2020-05-12  8:03       ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH v4 4/4] eal/atomic: add wrapper for c11 atomics Phil Yang
2020-05-12 11:18         ` Morten Brørup
2020-05-13  9:40           ` Phil Yang
2020-05-13 15:32             ` Honnappa Nagarahalli
2020-05-12 18:20         ` Stephen Hemminger
2020-05-12 19:23           ` Honnappa Nagarahalli
2020-05-13  8:57             ` Morten Brørup
2020-05-13 15:30               ` Honnappa Nagarahalli
2020-05-13 19:04               ` Mattias Rönnblom
2020-05-13 19:40                 ` Honnappa Nagarahalli
2020-05-13 20:17                   ` Mattias Rönnblom
2020-05-14  8:34                     ` Morten Brørup
2020-05-14 20:16                       ` Mattias Rönnblom
2020-05-14 21:00                         ` Honnappa Nagarahalli
2020-05-13 11:53             ` Ananyev, Konstantin [this message]
2020-05-13 15:06               ` Honnappa Nagarahalli
2020-05-13 19:25           ` Mattias Rönnblom
2020-05-12  8:18       ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH v4 0/4] generic rte atomic APIs deprecate proposal Phil Yang
2020-05-26  9:01       ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH v5 " Phil Yang
2020-05-26  9:01         ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH v5 1/4] doc: add generic atomic deprecation section Phil Yang
2020-05-26  9:01         ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH v5 2/4] maintainers: claim maintainers of c11 atomics code Phil Yang
2020-05-26  9:01         ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH v5 3/4] devtools: prevent use of rte atomic APIs in future patches Phil Yang
2020-06-29  4:38           ` Honnappa Nagarahalli
2020-06-29  5:38             ` Phil Yang
2020-05-26  9:01         ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH v5 4/4] eal/atomic: add wrapper for c11 atomic thread fence Phil Yang
2020-06-29  4:40           ` Honnappa Nagarahalli
2020-06-29 10:09             ` Ananyev, Konstantin
2020-06-29 14:37               ` Honnappa Nagarahalli
2020-06-29 10:13           ` Ananyev, Konstantin
2020-07-07  9:50         ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH v6 0/4] generic rte atomic APIs deprecate proposal Phil Yang
2020-07-07  9:50           ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH v6 1/4] doc: add generic atomic deprecation section Phil Yang
2020-07-10 16:55             ` Thomas Monjalon
2020-07-10 23:47               ` Honnappa Nagarahalli
2020-07-07  9:50           ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH v6 2/4] maintainers: claim maintainers of C11 atomics Phil Yang
2020-07-10 17:45             ` Thomas Monjalon
2020-07-10 23:41               ` Honnappa Nagarahalli
2020-07-13  6:26                 ` Phil Yang
2020-07-07  9:50           ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH v6 3/4] devtools: prevent use of rte atomic APIs in future patches Phil Yang
2020-07-07  9:50           ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH v6 4/4] eal/atomic: add wrapper for C11 atomic thread fence Phil Yang
2020-07-13  6:23           ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH v7 0/3] generic rte atomic APIs deprecate proposal Phil Yang
2020-07-13  6:23             ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH v7 1/3] doc: add generic atomic deprecation section Phil Yang
2020-07-14 18:36               ` Honnappa Nagarahalli
2020-07-15  2:58                 ` Phil Yang
2020-07-13  6:23             ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH v7 2/3] devtools: prevent use of rte atomic APIs in future patches Phil Yang
2020-07-13  6:23             ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH v7 3/3] eal/atomic: add wrapper for C11 atomic thread fence Phil Yang
2020-07-16  4:53             ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH v8 0/3] generic rte atomic APIs deprecate proposal Phil Yang
2020-07-16  4:53               ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH v8 1/3] doc: add optimizations using C11 atomic built-ins Phil Yang
2020-07-16 10:35                 ` David Marchand
2020-07-16 18:22                 ` Honnappa Nagarahalli
2020-07-17  4:44                   ` Phil Yang
2020-07-16  4:53               ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH v8 2/3] devtools: prevent use of rte atomic APIs in future patches Phil Yang
2020-07-16 10:48                 ` David Marchand
2020-07-16 11:31                   ` Thomas Monjalon
2020-07-16 16:37                     ` Phil Yang
2020-07-16 16:42                       ` Thomas Monjalon
2020-07-16 16:59                         ` Honnappa Nagarahalli
2020-07-16 21:45                           ` Stephen Hemminger
2020-07-17 22:48                             ` Honnappa Nagarahalli
2020-07-18  2:18                               ` Stephen Hemminger
2020-07-17  4:48                           ` Phil Yang
2020-07-16 15:07                   ` Phil Yang
2020-07-16  4:53               ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH v8 3/3] eal/atomic: add wrapper for C11 atomic thread fence Phil Yang
2020-07-17  5:08               ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH v9 0/3] generic rte atomic APIs deprecate proposal Phil Yang
2020-07-17  5:08                 ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH v9 1/3] doc: add optimizations using C11 atomic builtins Phil Yang
2020-07-17  5:08                 ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH v9 2/3] devtools: prevent use of rte atomic APIs in future patches Phil Yang
2020-07-17  8:35                   ` Thomas Monjalon
2020-07-17  9:41                     ` Phil Yang
2020-07-17  5:08                 ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH v9 3/3] eal/atomic: add wrapper for C11 atomic thread fence Phil Yang
2020-07-17  8:48                   ` Thomas Monjalon
2020-07-17  8:53                     ` Phil Yang
2020-07-17 10:14                 ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH v10 0/3] generic rte atomic APIs deprecate proposal Phil Yang
2020-07-17 10:14                   ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH v10 1/3] doc: add optimizations using C11 atomic builtins Phil Yang
2020-07-17 10:14                   ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH v10 2/3] eal/atomic: add wrapper for C11 atomic thread fence Phil Yang
2020-07-17 10:14                   ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH v10 3/3] devtools: prevent use of rte atomic APIs in future patches Phil Yang
2020-07-17 13:58                   ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH v10 0/3] generic rte atomic APIs deprecate proposal David Marchand
2020-07-20  7:06                     ` Phil Yang

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