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From: Morten Brørup <mb@smartsharesystems.com>
To: "Bruce Richardson" <bruce.richardson@intel.com>, <thomas@monjalon.net>
Cc: "Wiles, Keith" <keith.wiles@intel.com>,
	"Power, Ciara" <ciara.power@intel.com>, <dev@dpdk.org>,
	"Laatz, Kevin" <kevin.laatz@intel.com>,
	"Pattan, Reshma" <reshma.pattan@intel.com>,
	<jerinjacobk@gmail.com>, <david.marchand@redhat.com>,
	<thomas@monjalon.net>
Subject: Re: [dpdk-dev] [PATCH v2 00/16] update and simplifytelemetrylibrary.
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2020 16:55:30 +0200
Message-ID: <98CBD80474FA8B44BF855DF32C47DC35C60F73@smartserver.smartshare.dk> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <20200420131841.GA1714@bricha3-MOBL.ger.corp.intel.com>

> From: dev [mailto:dev-bounces@dpdk.org] On Behalf Of Bruce Richardson
> Sent: Monday, April 20, 2020 3:19 PM
> 
> On Fri, Apr 10, 2020 at 08:06:23PM +0200, Morten Brørup wrote:
> > > From: dev [mailto:dev-bounces@dpdk.org] On Behalf Of Wiles, Keith
> > > Sent: Friday, April 10, 2020 4:22 PM
> > >
> > > > On Apr 10, 2020, at 5:49 AM, Morten Brørup
> <mb@smartsharesystems.com>
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> From: Ciara Power [mailto:ciara.power@intel.com]
> > > >> Sent: Wednesday, April 8, 2020 6:50 PM
> > > >>
> > > >> This patchset extensively reworks the telemetry library adding
> new
> > > >> functionality and simplifying much of the existing code, while
> > > >> maintaining backward compatibility.
> > > >>
> > > >> This work is based on the previously sent RFC for a "process
> info"
> > > >> library:
> https://patchwork.dpdk.org/project/dpdk/list/?series=7741
> > > >> However, rather than creating a new library, this patchset takes
> > > >> that work and merges it into the existing telemetry library, as
> > > >> mentioned above.
> > > >>
> > > >> The telemetry library as shipped in 19.11 is based upon the
> metrics
> > > >> library and outputs all statistics based on that as a source.
> However,
> > > >> this limits the telemetry output to only port-level statistics
> > > >> information, rather than allowing it to be used as a general
> scheme for
> > > >> telemetry information across all DPDK libraries.
> > > >>
> > > >> With this patchset applied, rather than the telemetry library
> being
> > > >> responsible for pulling ethdev stats and pushing them into the
> metrics
> > > >> library for retrieval later, each library e.g. ethdev, rawdev,
> and even
> > > >> the metrics library itself (for backwards compatiblity) now
> handle
> > > >> their
> > > >> own stats.  Any library or app can register a callback function
> with
> > > >> telemetry, which will be called if requested by the client
> connected
> > > >> via
> > > >> the telemetry socket.
> > > >
> > > > Great. Standardization across libraries is a good improvement.
> > > >
> > > >> The callback function in the library/app then
> > > >> formats its stats, or other data, into a JSON string, and
> returns it to
> > > >> telemetry to be sent to the client.
> > > >
> > > > I am strongly opposed to using JSON as the standard format in
> DPDK, and
> > > instead prefer a binary format with zero (or minimal) type
> conversion.
> > > >
> > > > Here is one reason why I dislike JSON for this: A part of our
> application
> > > samples 100k+ counters every second to be able to provide drill-
> down
> > > statistics through the GUI. Converting these counters from uint64_t
> to JSON
> > > and back to uint64_t for data processing is not going to fly. And I
> assume
> > > that we are not the only company developing equipment with drill-
> down
> > > statistics.
> > > >
> > > > I am aware that there is a difference between statistics for
> *drill-down
> > > and data processing* purposes and statistics for *telemetry eyeball
> viewing
> > > only* purposes, but the line is blurry, and I see a big risk of
> setting a
> > > path that leads to JSON being used in places where it shouldn't.
> > > >
> > > > Here is another reason why I dislike JSON for this: JSON is fine
> for the
> > > LAMP stack with REST protocols. But other systems use other
> protocols with
> > > other formats, e.g. the TICK stack uses an even simpler text based
> format.
> > > So DPDK based systems supporting the TICK stack will need to
> convert to
> > > first JSON format (in the DPDK libraries), and then from JSON
> format to
> > > InfluxDB format (in the DPDK application).
> > > >
> > > > I think that type conversion does not belong inside deep inside
> the DPDK
> > > libraries, but is a job for the DPDK application. However, DPDK
> could
> > > provide libraries for efficient bulk conversion to popular formats
> like
> > > JSON. And other formats, if they are relevant, e.g. ASN.1 used by
> old
> > > school SNMP.
> > >
> > > I believe JSON has it place in this library and in DPDK as it is a
> good
> > > conversion tool and easy to utilize with a huge number of
> tools/languages.
> >
> > JSON is extremely heavy compared to a raw binary format.
> >
> > It makes sense for low volume, hierarchical structured data, but not
> for large tables or arrays of counters.
> >
> > > Binary output gets into endianness issues and a number of other
> problems,
> > > so I would not want all of the data exported from DPDK to be in
> binary
> > > format.
> >
> > Endianness considerations are only relevant for data exchanged across
> the network; not data exchanged across processes inside the same
> machine.
> >
> > And if you are exchanging data across the network, you would usually
> implement one or more well known protocols for that, e.g. JSON over
> HTTPS, or ASN.1 over SNMP, or InfluxDB over UDP. This means that the
> application needs to implement a protocol handler, which - in my
> opinion - should handle the relevant data type conversions from the raw
> format provided by DPDK.
> >
> > I think it would be silly for DPDK core libraries to provide counters
> in JSON format, so an SNMP Agent would need to convert them from JSON
> back to binary and then to ASN.1.
> >
> > > If the layout of the structure changes then the code would need to
> > > know that on both side to be able to convert the data into the
> correct
> > > values.
> >
> > I may be exaggerating here, but trying to prove a point: This is what
> we have ABI stability for. Structures should be designed cleverly and
> future proof, e.g. like the ethdev xstats. Using text based APIs is a
> circumvention of ABI stability.
> >
> > >
> > > With that stated, the new telemetry code allows the application to
> add new
> > > commands and with that you can create a binary set of commands
> along side
> > > the JSON or any other output format. With the new register command
> we can
> > > create say a ‘/ethdevraw/stats,X’ set of commands that can emit
> binary
> > > format.
> >
> > That would be silly. The protocol handler should make the protocol
> specific conversion, not the driver! Again, going to the extreme to
> prove a point: If I understand you correctly, this would mean that PMDs
> would have provide counters in ASN.1 format for SNMP.
> >
> > Our application provides a HTTPS/REST based communication interface
> for multiple purposes, e.g. getting tables of data. And if you want to
> get a table of some data via this interface, you can specify the output
> format in the request, so you can get it in e.g. TSV format (tabulator
> separated with a headline) for scripts, HTML format for human eyeballs.
> This data conversion happens at a common location, so we can easily add
> other output formats. You don't want to push this all the way down to
> the originator of the data.
> >
> > >
> > > Using this method we get the best of both worlds and when using
> languages
> > > like Go or Python to collect these stats we have a standard format
> for
> > > conversion. In Go it is pretty hard to do binary conversion and
> JSON
> > > conversion is just a few lines.
> >
> > I don't think DPDK should provide preferential treatment to Go or
> Python. DPDK is based on C, and should mainly cater for C.
> >
> > > JSON may not be the fastest, but if you are
> > > requesting stats faster than a second then use the raw commands to
> get the
> > > data, which anyone can add to its application or we can add them to
> DPDK as
> > > a standard command set.
> >
> > APIs in the libraries are currently available to get data in raw
> format. My main concern is that libraries in the future will not
> provide functions to get raw data, like they do now, but only JSON
> formatted data for the telemetry library. This is what I want to avoid.
> >
> 
> Hi Morten,
> 
> thanks for all the feedback.
> 
> Firstly on the performance side, we did some basic benchmarking of the
> output capabilities of the current proposal. Using a dummy client that
> had
> two queries constantly outstanding (to avoid dead time between one
> response
> and next request), we measured the number of replies per second from
> the
> ethdev xstats call.
> * with a 2.3 GHz Xeon system, we got 3,500 responses per second, with
> 146
>   stats per response, giving a total of >500k stats per second encoded
> and
>   transmitted.
> * for those 500k stats, looking at the cpu time on the core doing the
>   telemetry work, ~80% of CPU time was spent inside the ixgbe driver
>   getting the stats from the NIC card itself.
> * replacing the ixgbe NIC with a ring vdev increased the responses per
>   second to >100k, though with only 13 stats per response this time,
> giving
>   1.3M stats per second.
> * Splitting the existing xstats call in this RFC into separate xstat
>   names and xstat values calls (something I think is a good idea to do
>   generally), and only calling the xstat values call each time, gives
>   further perf increases to 163k responses per second.
> 
> Overall so, at least on the json generation side, it appears we can do
> things rather quickly, though I admit that we did not look into the
> parsing
> cost on the other side.
> 
> All that being said, however, I do understand your point about having
> everything work internally in json - something that ties in with Thomas
> concern about having flexibility. Therefore, while we will upstream a
> v3
> very shortly with the few incremental comments on v2, we can thereafter
> look to switch the internal communication between callbacks and
> telemetry
> library to use a regular data structure, and then leave the json
> encoding
> to the library itself just before output. That would:
> a) allow the addition of other output types in the future without
> needing
>    new callbacks.
> b) allow more flexibility for integrating with a future one-IPC
> mechanism
>    for DPDK.
> 
> I hope this option will resolve most concerns and allow for a 20.05
> integration.
> 
> Regards.
> /Bruce

Yes. Thank you.

Med venlig hilsen / kind regards
- Morten Brørup




  reply	other threads:[~2020-04-20 14:55 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 130+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2020-03-19 17:18 [dpdk-dev] [PATCH 00/12] update and simplify telemetry library Ciara Power
2020-03-19 17:18 ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH 01/12] telemetry: move code to metrics for later reuse Ciara Power
2020-03-19 17:18 ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH 02/12] metrics: reduce code taken from telemetry Ciara Power
2020-03-19 17:18 ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH 03/12] telemetry: invert dependency on metrics Ciara Power
2020-03-19 17:18 ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH 04/12] telemetry: introduce new telemetry functionality Ciara Power
2020-03-19 17:19 ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH 05/12] ethdev: add callback support for telemetry Ciara Power
2020-03-19 17:19 ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH 06/12] usertools: add new telemetry python script Ciara Power
2020-03-19 17:19 ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH 07/12] rawdev: add callback support for telemetry Ciara Power
2020-03-19 17:19 ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH 08/12] examples/l3fwd-power: enable use of new telemetry Ciara Power
2020-03-19 17:19 ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH 09/12] telemetry: introduce telemetry backward compatibility Ciara Power
2020-03-19 17:19 ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH 10/12] telemetry: remove existing telemetry files Ciara Power
2020-03-19 17:19 ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH 11/12] lib: add telemetry as eal dependency Ciara Power
2020-03-20 12:03   ` Jerin Jacob
2020-03-20 13:50     ` Bruce Richardson
2020-03-19 17:19 ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH 12/12] eal: add eal telemetry callbacks Ciara Power
2020-04-01 15:42 ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH 00/12] update and simplify telemetry library David Marchand
2020-04-01 16:16   ` Bruce Richardson
2020-04-02  8:30     ` Morten Brørup
2020-04-02  9:38       ` Thomas Monjalon
2020-04-01 16:48 ` Wiles, Keith
2020-04-02 10:09   ` Bruce Richardson
2020-04-08 16:49 ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH v2 00/16] " Ciara Power
2020-04-08 16:49   ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH v2 01/16] build: add arch-specific header path to global includes Ciara Power
2020-04-08 16:49   ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH v2 02/16] telemetry: move code to metrics for later reuse Ciara Power
2020-04-08 16:49   ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH v2 03/16] metrics: reduce code taken from telemetry Ciara Power
2020-04-08 16:49   ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH v2 04/16] telemetry: invert dependency on metrics Ciara Power
2020-04-10 16:15     ` Pattan, Reshma
2020-04-15  9:50       ` Power, Ciara
2020-04-08 16:49   ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH v2 05/16] telemetry: introduce new telemetry functionality Ciara Power
2020-04-08 17:56     ` Wiles, Keith
2020-04-08 16:49   ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH v2 06/16] telemetry: add utility functions for creating json Ciara Power
2020-04-08 18:12     ` Wiles, Keith
2020-04-09  8:19       ` Bruce Richardson
2020-04-08 16:49   ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH v2 07/16] app/test: add telemetry json tests Ciara Power
2020-04-08 16:49   ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH v2 08/16] ethdev: add callback support for telemetry Ciara Power
2020-04-08 18:16     ` Wiles, Keith
2020-04-09  8:20       ` Bruce Richardson
2020-04-10  9:57         ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH v2 08/16] ethdev: add callback support fortelemetry Morten Brørup
2020-04-08 16:49   ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH v2 09/16] usertools: add new telemetry python script Ciara Power
2020-04-10  9:43     ` Pattan, Reshma
2020-04-10  9:54       ` Bruce Richardson
2020-04-08 16:49   ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH v2 10/16] rawdev: add callback support for telemetry Ciara Power
2020-04-08 16:49   ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH v2 11/16] examples/l3fwd-power: enable use of new telemetry Ciara Power
2020-04-10  8:42     ` Pattan, Reshma
2020-04-08 16:49   ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH v2 12/16] telemetry: introduce telemetry backward compatibility Ciara Power
2020-04-10 17:00     ` Pattan, Reshma
2020-04-08 16:49   ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH v2 13/16] telemetry: remove existing telemetry files Ciara Power
2020-04-08 16:49   ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH v2 14/16] lib: add telemetry as eal dependency Ciara Power
2020-04-08 16:49   ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH v2 15/16] eal: add eal telemetry callbacks Ciara Power
2020-04-08 16:49   ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH v2 16/16] doc: update telemetry documentation Ciara Power
2020-04-08 18:03   ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH v2 00/16] update and simplify telemetry library Thomas Monjalon
2020-04-09  9:19     ` Bruce Richardson
2020-04-09  9:37       ` Thomas Monjalon
2020-04-10 14:39         ` Wiles, Keith
2020-04-10 14:51           ` Thomas Monjalon
2020-04-10 14:59             ` Wiles, Keith
2020-04-23 10:30         ` Luca Boccassi
2020-04-23 10:44           ` Thomas Monjalon
2020-04-23 11:46             ` Luca Boccassi
2020-04-10 10:49   ` Morten Brørup
2020-04-10 14:21     ` Wiles, Keith
2020-04-10 18:06       ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH v2 00/16] update and simplify telemetrylibrary Morten Brørup
2020-04-20 13:18         ` Bruce Richardson
2020-04-20 14:55           ` Morten Brørup [this message]
2020-04-21 12:39 ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH v3 00/17] update and simplify telemetry library Ciara Power
2020-04-21 12:39   ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH v3 01/17] build: add arch-specific header path to global includes Ciara Power
2020-04-21 12:39   ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH v3 02/17] telemetry: move code to metrics for later reuse Ciara Power
2020-04-21 12:39   ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH v3 03/17] metrics: reduce code taken from telemetry Ciara Power
2020-04-21 12:39   ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH v3 04/17] telemetry: invert dependency on metrics Ciara Power
2020-04-21 12:39   ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH v3 05/17] telemetry: introduce new telemetry functionality Ciara Power
2020-04-21 12:39   ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH v3 06/17] telemetry: add utility functions for creating json Ciara Power
2020-04-21 12:39   ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH v3 07/17] app/test: add telemetry json tests Ciara Power
2020-04-21 12:39   ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH v3 08/17] ethdev: add callback support for telemetry Ciara Power
2020-04-21 12:39   ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH v3 09/17] usertools: add new telemetry python script Ciara Power
2020-04-21 12:39   ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH v3 10/17] rawdev: add callback support for telemetry Ciara Power
2020-04-21 12:39   ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH v3 11/17] examples/l3fwd-power: enable use of new telemetry Ciara Power
2020-04-21 12:39   ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH v3 12/17] telemetry: introduce telemetry backward compatibility Ciara Power
2020-04-21 12:39   ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH v3 13/17] telemetry: remove existing telemetry files Ciara Power
2020-04-21 12:39   ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH v3 14/17] lib: add telemetry as eal dependency Ciara Power
2020-04-21 12:39   ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH v3 15/17] eal: remove rte-option infrastructure Ciara Power
2020-04-21 12:39   ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH v3 16/17] eal: add eal telemetry callbacks Ciara Power
2020-04-21 12:39   ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH v3 17/17] doc: update telemetry documentation Ciara Power
2020-04-24 12:41 ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH v4 00/18] update and simplify telemetry library Ciara Power
2020-04-24 12:41   ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH v4 01/18] build: add arch-specific header path to global includes Ciara Power
2020-04-24 12:41   ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH v4 02/18] telemetry: move code to metrics for later reuse Ciara Power
2020-04-24 15:29     ` Stephen Hemminger
2020-04-24 15:49       ` Bruce Richardson
2020-04-27  9:53       ` Power, Ciara
2020-04-24 12:41   ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH v4 03/18] metrics: reduce code taken from telemetry Ciara Power
2020-04-24 12:41   ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH v4 04/18] telemetry: invert dependency on metrics Ciara Power
2020-04-24 12:41   ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH v4 05/18] telemetry: add utility functions for creating json Ciara Power
2020-04-24 12:41   ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH v4 06/18] telemetry: introduce new telemetry functionality Ciara Power
2020-04-24 20:50     ` Wiles, Keith
2020-04-24 12:41   ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH v4 07/18] telemetry: add functions for returning callback data Ciara Power
2020-04-24 12:41   ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH v4 08/18] telemetry: add default callback commands Ciara Power
2020-04-24 12:41   ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH v4 09/18] usertools: add new telemetry python script Ciara Power
2020-04-24 12:41   ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH v4 10/18] ethdev: add callback support for telemetry Ciara Power
2020-04-24 12:41   ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH v4 11/18] rawdev: " Ciara Power
2020-04-24 12:41   ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH v4 12/18] examples/l3fwd-power: enable use of new telemetry Ciara Power
2020-04-24 12:41   ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH v4 13/18] telemetry: introduce telemetry backward compatibility Ciara Power
2020-04-24 20:59     ` Wiles, Keith
2020-04-24 12:41   ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH v4 14/18] telemetry: remove existing telemetry files Ciara Power
2020-04-24 12:41   ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH v4 15/18] lib: add telemetry as eal dependency Ciara Power
2020-04-24 12:41   ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH v4 16/18] eal: remove rte-option infrastructure Ciara Power
2020-04-24 12:41   ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH v4 17/18] eal: add eal telemetry callbacks Ciara Power
2020-04-24 12:41   ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH v4 18/18] doc: update telemetry documentation Ciara Power
2020-04-24 21:09   ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH v4 00/18] update and simplify telemetry library Wiles, Keith
2020-04-30 16:01 ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH v5 " Ciara Power
2020-04-30 16:01   ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH v5 01/18] build: add arch-specific header path to global includes Ciara Power
2020-04-30 16:01   ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH v5 02/18] telemetry: move code to metrics for later reuse Ciara Power
2020-04-30 16:01   ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH v5 03/18] metrics: reduce code taken from telemetry Ciara Power
2020-04-30 16:01   ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH v5 04/18] telemetry: invert dependency on metrics Ciara Power
2020-04-30 16:01   ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH v5 05/18] telemetry: add utility functions for creating json Ciara Power
2020-04-30 16:01   ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH v5 06/18] telemetry: introduce new telemetry functionality Ciara Power
2020-04-30 16:01   ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH v5 07/18] telemetry: add functions for returning callback data Ciara Power
2020-04-30 16:01   ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH v5 08/18] telemetry: add default callback commands Ciara Power
2020-04-30 16:01   ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH v5 09/18] usertools: add new telemetry python script Ciara Power
2020-04-30 16:01   ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH v5 10/18] ethdev: add callback support for telemetry Ciara Power
2020-04-30 16:01   ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH v5 11/18] rawdev: " Ciara Power
2020-04-30 16:01   ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH v5 12/18] examples/l3fwd-power: enable use of new telemetry Ciara Power
2020-04-30 16:01   ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH v5 13/18] telemetry: introduce telemetry backward compatibility Ciara Power
2020-04-30 16:01   ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH v5 14/18] telemetry: remove existing telemetry files Ciara Power
2020-04-30 16:01   ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH v5 15/18] lib: add telemetry as eal dependency Ciara Power
2020-05-10 22:29     ` Thomas Monjalon
2020-05-11  8:41       ` Bruce Richardson
2020-04-30 16:01   ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH v5 16/18] eal: remove rte-option infrastructure Ciara Power
2020-04-30 16:01   ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH v5 17/18] eal: add eal telemetry callbacks Ciara Power
2020-04-30 16:01   ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH v5 18/18] doc: update telemetry documentation Ciara Power
2020-05-01 14:41   ` [dpdk-dev] [PATCH v5 00/18] update and simplify telemetry library Wiles, Keith
2020-05-10 22:41   ` Thomas Monjalon

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